Chinese bikes

[slparry]

[quote="cros
Didn't we say that about the jap crap in the 1960`s or am I to old to suggest

.

Yes , buy the difference is the Japanese were innovators, the Chinese are plagiarists who have so far shown themselves unable to invent anything of note.[/quote]

mmmmmmm, playing devils advocate here but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

[Corvus]

[quote="cros
Didn't we say that about the jap crap in the 1960`s or am I to old to suggest

.

Yes , buy the difference is the Japanese were innovators, the Chinese are plagiarists who have so far shown themselves unable to invent anything of note.[/quote]

That was definitely also said about the Japanese too. That they were virtually incable of innovation. It was said by my first boss when I was an apprentice. Looking back with hindsight I can see that what he probably meant was that culturally, especially in an engineering context, there were constraints put upon people which impeded the path to express innovation. It wasn't their priority, perhaps.

Maybe an even simpler truth is that most of the innovation had already been done 30 or 40 years earlier anyway?

The very first Hondas were just before my time. But didn't they outperform "western" bikes and were more reliable? Is that what you mean by innovation? The higher/better specification, productionised? Overhead cams etc?

[eyore]

[quote="eyore
The very first Hondas were just before my time. But didn't they outperform "western" bikes and were more reliable? Is that what you mean by innovation? The higher/better specification, productionised? Overhead cams etc?

Absolutely. Compare the Japanese racing bikes of the 60s with the benchmarks of the era. They really pushed the boundaries, Same applies to their production models, compared to the even then outdated pre unit, British parallel twins that hadent really moved on from Edward Turners original twins.

[Corvus]

[quote="eyore
The very first Hondas were just before my time. But didn't they outperform "western" bikes and were more reliable? Is that what you mean by innovation? The higher/better specification, productionised? Overhead cams etc?

Absolutely. Compare the Japanese racing bikes of the 60s with the benchmarks of the era. They really pushed the boundaries, Same applies to their production models, compared to the even then outdated pre unit, British parallel twins that hadent really moved on from Edward Turners original twins.

I don't think their chassis were particularly well thought of at that time! Engine design, yes, perhaps innovation. Depends on how we categorise innovation I suppose. There was a lot of misguided prejudice against their motorcycles that somehow persisted well into the late seventies against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, chassis capability excepted.

Would you agree? Did you find that in your own circles?

[bikesnbones]

Yes , buy the difference is the Japanese were innovators,

Not sure I entirely agree with that,
Mostly what they did was develop and perfect existing technology, and to a large extent, copied.
I was reading an article about Soichiro Honda.
When he travelled to Italy for example, he'd take an empty suitcase into which he stuffed parts from bikes to bring home to study.
He was particularly obsessed with Ducati apparently.
The Chinese seem to be following a similar path,
The main difference today is that the Japanese and Europeans have a very high quality product.
When the Japanese took over, the bike market was a shambles, so it was a fairly easy objective for them.

[Gromit]

Also worth remembering that until Suzuki stole MZ's 2-stroke engine designs, they were groping around in the dark, relatively speaking.

Virtually all of the ideas (not just motorcycles) the Japanese have supposed to have come up can be traced to elsewhere. What the Japs did - and did it brilliantly - was to spot the great ones from the rubbish, and develop them, making them work until they dominated the marketplace.

They were capable of producing wonderfully engineered, and therefore reliable items though, and on a vast scale, which is where they drove the nails into the coffin of the British bike industry. Admittedly that coffin was built from balsa wood and they used a nail gun, so quickly & easily was the job done.

[Corvus]

Also worth remembering that until Suzuki stole MZ's 2-stroke engine designs, they were groping around in the dark, relatively speaking.

Virtually all of the ideas (not just motorcycles) the Japanese have supposed to have come up can be traced to elsewhere. What the Japs did - and did it brilliantly - was to spot the great ones from the rubbish, and develop them, making them work until they dominated the marketplace.

They were capable of producing wonderfully engineered, and therefore reliable items though, and on a vast scale, which is where they drove the nails into the coffin of the British bike industry. Admittedly that coffin was built from balsa wood and they used a nail gun, so quickly & easily was the job done.

Stealing speed by mat oxley. Great read.

On the subject of 2 strokes, who came up with the reed valve?

[Gromit]

Stealing speed by mat oxley. Great read.

On the subject of 2 strokes, who came up with the reed valve?

Indeed, a great book. Had Walter Kaaden and his MZ team been on the same budget as the Japanese, who knows what they would've gone onto. Incredible what they achieved on meagre funds.

Not sure on the reed valve, I know it wasn't invented by the Japanese - Joseph Day invented the original (more of flap valve I guess) but I think Yamaha were the first to utilise it in a bike engine. Suzuki used disc valves (ie the same as the MZ).

[Corvus]

Stealing speed by mat oxley. Great read.

On the subject of 2 strokes, who came up with the reed valve?

Indeed, a great book. Had Walter Kaaden and his MZ team been on the same budget as the Japanese, who knows what they would've gone onto. Incredible what they achieved on meagre funds.

Not sure on the reed valve, I know it wasn't invented by the Japanese - Joseph Day invented the original (more of flap valve I guess) but I think Yamaha were the first to utilise it in a bike engine. Suzuki used disc valves (ie the same as the MZ).

Had to check the dictionary meaning of invent and innovate. Very close definitions.

I'm struggling to think of any invention attributable to the Japanese, with respect to motorcycles. I thought maybe the reed valve might be one. It appears not. Doh!

Innovation? Perhaps, depending on how generous we are with our application of the dictionary.

[slparry]

Also worth remembering that until Suzuki stole MZ's 2-stroke engine designs, they were groping around in the dark, relatively speaking.

Virtually all of the ideas (not just motorcycles) the Japanese have supposed to have come up can be traced to elsewhere. What the Japs did - and did it brilliantly - was to spot the great ones from the rubbish, and develop them, making them work until they dominated the marketplace.

They were capable of producing wonderfully engineered, and therefore reliable items though, and on a vast scale, which is where they drove the nails into the coffin of the British bike industry. Admittedly that coffin was built from balsa wood and they used a nail gun, so quickly & easily was the job done.

Stealing speed by mat oxley. Great read.

On the subject of 2 strokes, who came up with the reed valve?

I think it was a guy called Professor Blair from Belfast University, possibly a music professor(I maybe misremembering) I beleive he got the idea from the reeds on musical instruments and thought it would solve the problem that two strokes had at the time blowing back through the ports (in particular the BSA Bantam). He presented the idea to BSA and they dismissed it as they knew motorbikes and weren't going to be told by a music professor. So he took the idea to Yamaha and they loved it.

The reed valve was brought over to Suzuki by an east German racer, Ernst Degner, who raced I think with DKW/MZ and defected to the West and raced then for Suzuki.

As I say I could be misremembering

[slparry]

Ok not a music professor

http://www.profblairandassociates.com/GPB_Tribute.html

[Gromit]

The reed valve was brought over to Suzuki by an east German racer, Ernst Degner, who raced I think with DKW/MZ and defected to the West and raced then for Suzuki.

As I say I could be misremembering

Suzuki actually used rotary disc valves, and did so for many years after Degner's defection in the RG500 racebikes. Kaaden used these as it was easy to alter the port timing on his racing engines.

Degner was leading the 1961 Swedish 125 GP when he rode off the course - he was so far ahead of the rest of the field as to be out of sight. Had he finished the race, MZ would've won the 1961 World 125cc GP championship. One cannot even begin to imagine how desperate Kaaden must've felt after his. Suzuki's engine's were miserably outclassed by other racing bikes of the day, so during a meeting with Degner (and the promise of a better life outside the DDR) the plans were made for his defection in the middle of a race on Western soil.

I've got a print out of a lovely story about Walter Kaaden by Alan Shephard when he was racing for the MZ team. I'll try and find it and post it up here. It's an over-used term, but Kaaden really was an absolute genius.

[slparry]

The reed valve was brought over to Suzuki by an east German racer, Ernst Degner, who raced I think with DKW/MZ and defected to the West and raced then for Suzuki.

As I say I could be misremembering

Suzuki actually used rotary disc valves, and did so for many years after Degner's defection in the RG500 racebikes. Kaaden used these as it was easy to alter the port timing on his racing engines.

Degner was leading the 1961 Swedish 125 GP when he rode off the course - he was so far ahead of the rest of the field as to be out of sight. Had he finished the race, MZ would've won the 1961 World 125cc GP championship. One cannot even begin to imagine how desperate Kaaden must've felt after his. Suzuki's engine's were miserably outclassed by other racing bikes of the day, so during a meeting with Degner (and the promise of a better life outside the DDR) the plans were made for his defection in the middle of a race on Western soil.

I've got a print out of a lovely story about Walter Kaaden by Alan Shephard when he was racing for the MZ team. I'll try and find it and post it up here. It's an over-used term, but Kaaden really was an absolute genius.

I meant rotary valve not reed valve Suzuki never used reeds until the X7 I think

[Gromit]

I meant rotary valve not reed valve Suzuki never used reeds until the X7 I think

Sounds about right to me Steve - the X7's engine was very close to the RD250. The older GT250 was piston-ported.

[slparry]

I meant rotary valve not reed valve Suzuki never used reeds until the X7 I think

Sounds about right to me Steve - the X7's engine was very close to the RD250. The older GT250 was piston-ported.

Until Yamaha trounced Suzuki again with the (stunning) LC .... It again took ages for Suzuki to catch up with the RG250 Gamma.

Of course it's a very reasonable argument that that marketing race was ultimately responsible for 250's being taken out of the hands of learners.

My RD250B had a 5 speed box, which was Yamahas attempt to reduce the top speed to 90mph. The 6th gear was there but the selector had a plate that blocked access to it. Motorcycle Mechanics magazine did a guide on how to change the plate to allow all 6 gears to work. I did mine, which was a cheap part and a short (easy) time to fit it.

Once fitted it would reach an indicated 100mph ... L plates flapping in the wind, expansion chambers making peoples ears bleed Woo hoo