As scarey as these incident are I can see both sides of the argument APART from anyone who can justify having an assault rifle in public ownership. I don't agree with a total ban (and it would never happen in the US) but surely there should be limits on the type of weapon??
When asked about assault rifles most folks reply "cause I want one-and it's my right to chose what weapon I want" any call for a total ban will go nowhere but a ban in certain weapons is a start and easier for normal American citizens to accept!
What people don't remember is that most ( if not all if these massacres) were committed by legally owned weapons not gang bangers using stolen, unlicensed firearms!
Piers Morgan gun control
Moderators: Gromit, Paul, slparry
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boxerscott
- Posts: 3708
- Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:07 pm
- Location: scottish borders
- Contact:
I was apalled at the comments from the guy representing the pro gun lobby "We need a good guy wth a gun at our schools instead of the bad guy with a gun" only in USA 
Lennon "when we got here people were were all walking around in f cucking bermuda shorts, the chicks looked like 1940`s horses, we just thought what an ugly race, what an ugly race"
(quote from 1970`s)
They shot him too.
Lennon "when we got here people were were all walking around in f cucking bermuda shorts, the chicks looked like 1940`s horses, we just thought what an ugly race, what an ugly race"
(quote from 1970`s)
They shot him too.
Fiat Panda.
Fiat Scudo (with speedblock, pipe carrier, reversing sensors, reversing camera, tow bar, some new rust and Fake Plumber logo)
started out with nothing, still have most of it left.
Fiat Scudo (with speedblock, pipe carrier, reversing sensors, reversing camera, tow bar, some new rust and Fake Plumber logo)
started out with nothing, still have most of it left.
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StreetFlatTwin
- Posts: 429
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:41 pm
- Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Yeah but my point is if you have an assault rifle with 30 rounds and several clips it could kills loads of folk fairly quickly compared to a handgun or bolt action rifle.
Also in the cinema killings in the US there were quite a few injured people in the cinema through the wall as the power (velocity?? Don't know the right terminology) was such that the rounds passed through the walls-again less likely with a lower powered hand gun!
Thus limiting the power or rate of fire is a good 1st step....yes??
Also in the cinema killings in the US there were quite a few injured people in the cinema through the wall as the power (velocity?? Don't know the right terminology) was such that the rounds passed through the walls-again less likely with a lower powered hand gun!
Thus limiting the power or rate of fire is a good 1st step....yes??
Sure - it's not just one thing......... like a lot of events in life, it requires a concurence of different items - to occur.
Most of these tradgedies are caused by "loners", most of whom also seem to have a fascination with firearms and/or militaria. I suspect that they also fantacise about being in the armed services and killing.
It seems like there is also an element of depression with them leading up to them "snapping".
What exacerbates the above - is a culture which is based upon (relatively) free gun-ownership and usage.
Assault-type weapons suit their purposes well, because they allow them to fullfill their fantasy about "military action" together with high firepower.
I've always suspected some kind of assimilation between the American people, and the cinema - in respect to violent/action movies, and their (predominately) American-accented actors. Subconciously - some Americans may actually get the two mixed up? (cinema and real life)
Computer games probably also have an effect, and can go hand-in-glove with the teenage "loner" lifestyle.
Also in the mix - is the media coverage of these "events". One US reporter in the early hours of the Sandy Hook shootings said "the tally so far is **, and if those figures hold up - it will be the **rd highest...."
(I'm paraphrasing, but not on the "if these figures hold up" part.)
Of course - not every mass-murderer is swayed by the "They will remember me" aspect, but like a lot of suicides - there is an element of "I'll show them!"
I don't see the logic in this fanatical protection of the 2nd amendment. There have been 27 amendments - there is nothing to prevent a 28th amendment, other than a lot of people who cling desperately to the 2nd, because it suits their purpose.
Those people are still "playing the odds" in their own minds - thinking that the chance of a mass-shooting affecting them or their families - is still "acceptable" in probability terms. Until such time as either a) They are directly affected by it, or b) it becomes a tangable risk........... they will cling voraciously to the 2nd amendment.
As in a previous post, I wonder - how frequent do these shootings have to get - before someone actually bites the bullet (so to speak).
One a week would certainly equate to a tangable risk in parents' minds - I would suggest.
I think that armed guards are probably a good "immediate" response for the USA (not armed teachers, who should have nothing more lethal than a blackboard duster) - on the basis, that in the future - they can be taken away if other means are introduced in law.
Of course - that does little in shopping malls and cinemas, but as Tesco says - "every little helps".
Thanks for listening.
Al
Most of these tradgedies are caused by "loners", most of whom also seem to have a fascination with firearms and/or militaria. I suspect that they also fantacise about being in the armed services and killing.
It seems like there is also an element of depression with them leading up to them "snapping".
What exacerbates the above - is a culture which is based upon (relatively) free gun-ownership and usage.
Assault-type weapons suit their purposes well, because they allow them to fullfill their fantasy about "military action" together with high firepower.
I've always suspected some kind of assimilation between the American people, and the cinema - in respect to violent/action movies, and their (predominately) American-accented actors. Subconciously - some Americans may actually get the two mixed up? (cinema and real life)
Computer games probably also have an effect, and can go hand-in-glove with the teenage "loner" lifestyle.
Also in the mix - is the media coverage of these "events". One US reporter in the early hours of the Sandy Hook shootings said "the tally so far is **, and if those figures hold up - it will be the **rd highest...."
(I'm paraphrasing, but not on the "if these figures hold up" part.)
Of course - not every mass-murderer is swayed by the "They will remember me" aspect, but like a lot of suicides - there is an element of "I'll show them!"
I don't see the logic in this fanatical protection of the 2nd amendment. There have been 27 amendments - there is nothing to prevent a 28th amendment, other than a lot of people who cling desperately to the 2nd, because it suits their purpose.
Those people are still "playing the odds" in their own minds - thinking that the chance of a mass-shooting affecting them or their families - is still "acceptable" in probability terms. Until such time as either a) They are directly affected by it, or b) it becomes a tangable risk........... they will cling voraciously to the 2nd amendment.
As in a previous post, I wonder - how frequent do these shootings have to get - before someone actually bites the bullet (so to speak).
One a week would certainly equate to a tangable risk in parents' minds - I would suggest.
I think that armed guards are probably a good "immediate" response for the USA (not armed teachers, who should have nothing more lethal than a blackboard duster) - on the basis, that in the future - they can be taken away if other means are introduced in law.
Of course - that does little in shopping malls and cinemas, but as Tesco says - "every little helps".
Thanks for listening.
Al
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
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el-nicko
- Member
- Posts: 1562
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:04 pm
- Location: Nick from HEREFORDSHIRE, The Oceanian province of Airstrip One.
Well, whilst not wishing in any way to downplay or denigrate the recent and tragic events that have prompted this debate can I just say that, given that there are about 240,000,000 adult Americans and probably the same amount of privatly owned small arms in the U S it's surely surprising that outrages such as we've seen recently are not a lot more common, and in fact their 'rarity' is evidence of an incredible amount of self-restraint/control and general mental stability on the part the vast majority of our cousins 'over the pond'. For someone like myself who has a deep, life-long love of all things mechanical, it's hard to exclude guns (of any type and calibre) from my list of 'likes'. In my youth I was a keen member of a pistol shooting club and I still find them facinating. And that's the problem for the anti-gun lobby in the USA. Politics and Second Amendment aside, millions of Americans just, simply, love their guns. To anyone who would attempt to disarm the NRA and America at large I say, 'Good Luck' with that. In a country awash with smallarms and a gun-loving population that has a deep distrust of the politicos in Washington I recon they've got about as much chance of success as someone trying to mop up the Mississippi with a blotter. OK, Fire Away.
.
Mr. Spock is my role model so be advised; I possess no (discernible) sense of humour.
It's all VFR (DCT) round here now. STILL missing my 1100s tho.
Mr. Spock is my role model so be advised; I possess no (discernible) sense of humour.
It's all VFR (DCT) round here now. STILL missing my 1100s tho.
Absolutely Nick,
In the UK - there was sufficient public "will".
Sure we got the sports shooters who threw up their arms (the ones attached to their shoulders ) and shouting "But this is our sport!"....
Thankfully in the UK - the general response from the public was - "Get yourself another fcukin' hobby".
Al
In the UK - there was sufficient public "will".
Sure we got the sports shooters who threw up their arms (the ones attached to their shoulders
) and shouting "But this is our sport!"....
Thankfully in the UK - the general response from the public was - "Get yourself another fcukin' hobby".
Al
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Having a full auto assault rifle at your disposal makes repeated killing easier at a distance and considerably physically less demanding so probably the first choice for would be murderers. But just the thought of needlessly killing an animal or the slaughter of innocent people makes me cringe. I cannot imagine what must be happening inside such a persons mind when killing people.
As a boy I hunted with my dad and he reloaded the ammunition so I developed an interest in guns and related subjects. A handgun and/or a shotgun is more than enough to protect your home. The sound of a shotgun being cycled in the dead of night is going to turn any intruders sh1t flaky. Being in possession of a gun doesn't give you the right to bear it. In stead great care must taken because the sight of a gun on your person will more often than not escalate the tension in a confrontation and will make you a target. The opposite can also be true but when drawing a gun you must be sure that someone's life or your own is in immediate danger and the next step would be to fire the weapon and there must be no doubt. Such responsibility can only be handled by a sane person. It is therefore important that you as a gun owner adopt a mindset not to abuse your right as a gun owner and to keep the weapons safe.
To reply to StreetFlatTwin.
Bullet penetration or the study of ballistics is very interesting, can be confusing for those who are not familiar with guns or physics. The penetration of a projectile depends on a few factors regarding the projectile it self (construction, size or calibre, weight, speed at impact) and the object (density of the matter, size or depth, angle at which it is struck, layers of or composition of the matter) to name a few. When we talk about killing humans you would want the bullet to spend all of its energy with-in the body of the target to increase the shock and tear effect. The other consideration is to limit over penetration in fear of hitting what is behind the target or to limit the damage that will be done behind the target. This is the ideal when we talk about law enforcement shootings or any operation in urban areas where violence is likely. Shocking but true. Nowadays counter terrorism teams has to deal with the fact that the terrorist might be wearing body armour so the Secret Service and other forces uses the 5.7x28 mm round that is designed to penetrate body armour.
For hunting applications you actually want the bullet to penetrate (except when shooting vermin like foxes for which bullet construction is lighter to fragment on impact) to cause bleeding and reduce the waste of meat. The choice of calibre becomes more critical the bigger the game gets and as such the construction and weight of the bullet. Controlled mushrooming and minimal loss of bullet weight with-in the body is the ideal. You'll find a lot of discussion among hunters about the preferred brand of bullet and the calibre to be used. It is a personal choice based on experience and the quarry.
To note that powerful hand guns like the 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, .50AE as examples has good penetrating ability but it also depends on the bullet used (tougher full metal jacket round penetrates further than soft nose bullets). When choosing a handgun for personal protection/defence the so called knock down effect of the calibre is considered, describing the ability to bring the target down with one shot. The .38 Special and 45ACP is good examples. Make no mistake, any calibre of weapon can kill you. Military ammunition is a full metal jacket round. The 5.56 mm NATO is a relatively high velocity round and penetrates flesh quite well but fragments when striking solid or more denser objects as compared to the slower travelling 7.62 mm that has massive penetrating power even at great distances. The British Army 9x19 mm NATO pistol round (if they still use the same type as in 1990's) is known to be quite powerful for a 9 mm round and will over penetrate.
As a boy I hunted with my dad and he reloaded the ammunition so I developed an interest in guns and related subjects. A handgun and/or a shotgun is more than enough to protect your home. The sound of a shotgun being cycled in the dead of night is going to turn any intruders sh1t flaky. Being in possession of a gun doesn't give you the right to bear it. In stead great care must taken because the sight of a gun on your person will more often than not escalate the tension in a confrontation and will make you a target. The opposite can also be true but when drawing a gun you must be sure that someone's life or your own is in immediate danger and the next step would be to fire the weapon and there must be no doubt. Such responsibility can only be handled by a sane person. It is therefore important that you as a gun owner adopt a mindset not to abuse your right as a gun owner and to keep the weapons safe.
To reply to StreetFlatTwin.
Bullet penetration or the study of ballistics is very interesting, can be confusing for those who are not familiar with guns or physics. The penetration of a projectile depends on a few factors regarding the projectile it self (construction, size or calibre, weight, speed at impact) and the object (density of the matter, size or depth, angle at which it is struck, layers of or composition of the matter) to name a few. When we talk about killing humans you would want the bullet to spend all of its energy with-in the body of the target to increase the shock and tear effect. The other consideration is to limit over penetration in fear of hitting what is behind the target or to limit the damage that will be done behind the target. This is the ideal when we talk about law enforcement shootings or any operation in urban areas where violence is likely. Shocking but true. Nowadays counter terrorism teams has to deal with the fact that the terrorist might be wearing body armour so the Secret Service and other forces uses the 5.7x28 mm round that is designed to penetrate body armour.
For hunting applications you actually want the bullet to penetrate (except when shooting vermin like foxes for which bullet construction is lighter to fragment on impact) to cause bleeding and reduce the waste of meat. The choice of calibre becomes more critical the bigger the game gets and as such the construction and weight of the bullet. Controlled mushrooming and minimal loss of bullet weight with-in the body is the ideal. You'll find a lot of discussion among hunters about the preferred brand of bullet and the calibre to be used. It is a personal choice based on experience and the quarry.
To note that powerful hand guns like the 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, .50AE as examples has good penetrating ability but it also depends on the bullet used (tougher full metal jacket round penetrates further than soft nose bullets). When choosing a handgun for personal protection/defence the so called knock down effect of the calibre is considered, describing the ability to bring the target down with one shot. The .38 Special and 45ACP is good examples. Make no mistake, any calibre of weapon can kill you. Military ammunition is a full metal jacket round. The 5.56 mm NATO is a relatively high velocity round and penetrates flesh quite well but fragments when striking solid or more denser objects as compared to the slower travelling 7.62 mm that has massive penetrating power even at great distances. The British Army 9x19 mm NATO pistol round (if they still use the same type as in 1990's) is known to be quite powerful for a 9 mm round and will over penetrate.
'Let me check my concernometer.'
The Second Amendment to our Constitution isn't about "sport". It is about protecting ourselves and our freedom. If you recall we removed ourselves from the rule of your King by use of Pennsylvania rifles, muskets and shotguns wielded by a militia of citizens.
I am sure many of you will find this hard to fathom, but it was not uncommon for me, as a high school student, to take a shotgun to school so that friends and I could go hunting when out for the day. No one got hurt, it never occurred to any of us to use a gun to settle a grudge. My neighbor from Montana, took his .22 rifle to grade school, on the school bus, for the same purposes, no one was hurt. I was permitted to keep my hunting rifle, shotgun and pistol in my dorm room, or a provided storage cabinet, while at college. Again no one was ever shot, accidentally or intentionally. If you were on a shooting team, you usually kept your target rife, pistol or shotgun in you dorm room. Rifles were a common sight, in unlocked racks, in the back window of most pick up trucks, through out the western and southern US. I don't know of any that were stolen, though the trucks were often unlocked, with the windows down. We never took the keys out of the ignition of our car, or locked the doors to the house, as I grew up in Texas. You sure can't do that today.
Something has changed, but it isn't the firearm, it is with those that wield them.
Chicago has some of the most restrictive laws on gun ownership. Few there, can own guns legally. Chicago ranks among the highest murder rate in the US. Washington D.C. is more restrictive than Chicago, and has similar crime statistics.
From the World Health Organization:
The latest Murder Statistics for the world:
Murders per 100,000 citizens
Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
Colombia 33.4
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Costa Rica 10.0
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And
The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans
I am sure many of you will find this hard to fathom, but it was not uncommon for me, as a high school student, to take a shotgun to school so that friends and I could go hunting when out for the day. No one got hurt, it never occurred to any of us to use a gun to settle a grudge. My neighbor from Montana, took his .22 rifle to grade school, on the school bus, for the same purposes, no one was hurt. I was permitted to keep my hunting rifle, shotgun and pistol in my dorm room, or a provided storage cabinet, while at college. Again no one was ever shot, accidentally or intentionally. If you were on a shooting team, you usually kept your target rife, pistol or shotgun in you dorm room. Rifles were a common sight, in unlocked racks, in the back window of most pick up trucks, through out the western and southern US. I don't know of any that were stolen, though the trucks were often unlocked, with the windows down. We never took the keys out of the ignition of our car, or locked the doors to the house, as I grew up in Texas. You sure can't do that today.
Something has changed, but it isn't the firearm, it is with those that wield them.
Chicago has some of the most restrictive laws on gun ownership. Few there, can own guns legally. Chicago ranks among the highest murder rate in the US. Washington D.C. is more restrictive than Chicago, and has similar crime statistics.
From the World Health Organization:
The latest Murder Statistics for the world:
Murders per 100,000 citizens
Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
Colombia 33.4
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Costa Rica 10.0
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And
The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans
AZ Pete. It's a shame you weren't on the show instead of the actual interviewee, there might have been a reasoned debate.
My second post in the thread was about the opportunity for debate that was lost by having a raving lunatic on the show to defend the pro gun lobby. That said, someone more reasonable would not have made good telly, the whole point I suspect for them having him on the show in the first place. They knew what they were going to get so the whole thing was contrived.
The UK has a restrictive attitude to firearms, with really the only accessible firearms being conventional shotguns and somebody rifles and pistols. That absolutely does not make the UK safe. In fact I feel safer walking around Moscow late at night than I do London. But with recent high profile events in the US a proper debate needs to be had about the need for legal access to certain categories of firearms.
Can anyone seriously make a reasonable argument for members of the public to own military style assault rifles?
My second post in the thread was about the opportunity for debate that was lost by having a raving lunatic on the show to defend the pro gun lobby. That said, someone more reasonable would not have made good telly, the whole point I suspect for them having him on the show in the first place. They knew what they were going to get so the whole thing was contrived.
The UK has a restrictive attitude to firearms, with really the only accessible firearms being conventional shotguns and somebody rifles and pistols. That absolutely does not make the UK safe. In fact I feel safer walking around Moscow late at night than I do London. But with recent high profile events in the US a proper debate needs to be had about the need for legal access to certain categories of firearms.
Can anyone seriously make a reasonable argument for members of the public to own military style assault rifles?
********Jim********
---------------------------
2006 'Colgate' R1200s
---------------------------
2006 'Colgate' R1200s
Statistic can be thrown around willy nilly forever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate
Oh and Pete you state that all the countries in your list have 100% gun bans .....
wikipedia states "Mexico has strict gun laws. Mexican citizens and legal residents may purchase new non-military firearms for self-protection or hunting only after receiving approval of a petition to the Defense Ministry, which performs extensive background checks. The allowed weapons are restricted to relatively low-caliber and can be purchased from the Defense Ministry only."
So at least one on that list is not 100% banned
It's sad to note that the US is in the company of some very 3rd world economies and violent countries on that list
I honestly don't believe "freedom" is that weak in the US that it needs protecting from the muzzle of a gun.
The inference being that we in the UK aren't free? After all if we no longer have the ability to shoot our neighbours then we must be slaves to the state, droids to the British State and Royalty.
That's balderdash .... I see no difference in real freedoms in the UK / Europe than the US. Using freedom as a reason to retain gun ownership by the masses is archaic, it's as archaic as the Islamic worlds closed attitudes, in much the same way as the US constantly harping about the constitution, much of it may have applied 200 years ago it's not so relevant now so could be changed and modernised. Again in much the same way as the Quoran would benefit from being readdressed for a modern world.
We are in a new millenium, the days requiring public ownership of guns have long gone, let the state via its military be charged with the protection of freedom. Otherwise that freedom and democracy can be enforced by the violent, and that ceases to be freedom.
Oh and this constant reference the gun lobby seem to like making about breaking away from England, yeah ok there was a revolt "England" left the US to it but come one guys it's a long time ago we know what happened, I'm just puzzled how it has any relevance to the modern world?
It's very puzzling that gun ownership in the US is similar to Canada yet Canadas death rate from guns is a third of the US's, something is very wrong somewhere.
Ultimately, and this is not intended to be inflammatory, but it's hard to avoid being so, it appears to the world that the right to bear arms is more important than a childs life. That being evidenced in the atrocities that have happened to date and no change or will to change the right to bear arms, it's sad but the US may as well prepare itself for more such events in the future and just accept them as the price of the right to bear arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate
Oh and Pete you state that all the countries in your list have 100% gun bans .....
wikipedia states "Mexico has strict gun laws. Mexican citizens and legal residents may purchase new non-military firearms for self-protection or hunting only after receiving approval of a petition to the Defense Ministry, which performs extensive background checks. The allowed weapons are restricted to relatively low-caliber and can be purchased from the Defense Ministry only."
So at least one on that list is not 100% banned
It's sad to note that the US is in the company of some very 3rd world economies and violent countries on that list
I honestly don't believe "freedom" is that weak in the US that it needs protecting from the muzzle of a gun.
The inference being that we in the UK aren't free? After all if we no longer have the ability to shoot our neighbours then we must be slaves to the state, droids to the British State and Royalty.
That's balderdash .... I see no difference in real freedoms in the UK / Europe than the US. Using freedom as a reason to retain gun ownership by the masses is archaic, it's as archaic as the Islamic worlds closed attitudes, in much the same way as the US constantly harping about the constitution, much of it may have applied 200 years ago it's not so relevant now so could be changed and modernised. Again in much the same way as the Quoran would benefit from being readdressed for a modern world.
We are in a new millenium, the days requiring public ownership of guns have long gone, let the state via its military be charged with the protection of freedom. Otherwise that freedom and democracy can be enforced by the violent, and that ceases to be freedom.
Oh and this constant reference the gun lobby seem to like making about breaking away from England, yeah ok there was a revolt "England" left the US to it but come one guys it's a long time ago we know what happened, I'm just puzzled how it has any relevance to the modern world?
It's very puzzling that gun ownership in the US is similar to Canada yet Canadas death rate from guns is a third of the US's, something is very wrong somewhere.
Ultimately, and this is not intended to be inflammatory, but it's hard to avoid being so, it appears to the world that the right to bear arms is more important than a childs life. That being evidenced in the atrocities that have happened to date and no change or will to change the right to bear arms, it's sad but the US may as well prepare itself for more such events in the future and just accept them as the price of the right to bear arms.
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Steve Parry
Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '15 R1200RT LE Dynamic, '90 K1
Steve Parry
Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '15 R1200RT LE Dynamic, '90 K1
"Oh and this constant reference the gun lobby seem to like making about breaking away from England, yeah ok there was a revolt "England" left the US to it but come one guys it's a long time ago we know what happened, I'm just puzzled how it has any relevance to the modern world?"
I see that you don't. The point is that the second amendment came as a result of our freedom, as did the first and others.
I see that you don't. The point is that the second amendment came as a result of our freedom, as did the first and others.
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StreetFlatTwin
- Posts: 429
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:41 pm
- Location: Glasgow, Scotland
AZ Pete you come across as a fairly "normal" US citizen who uses and enjoys the leisure side of shooting.
My question is can you justify or explain (as I can't get my head around this one) why any "normal" US citizen NEEDS an assault rifle or anything with a high fire rate?
A Glock hand gun can be adapted to hold about 18 rounds and if that's not enough to protect your home then either you need to learn to shoot straight (cause your missing) or the big man upstairs wants a personal chat
I'm not against guns and don't think that the US should ban all weapons but I have yet to hear anyone provide a reasonable reason why they need auto, semi auto assault rifles and other high rate of fire (with large clips)
You won't stop these terrible things from happening but you may be able to reduce the death toll....see where I'm coming from??
My question is can you justify or explain (as I can't get my head around this one) why any "normal" US citizen NEEDS an assault rifle or anything with a high fire rate?
A Glock hand gun can be adapted to hold about 18 rounds and if that's not enough to protect your home then either you need to learn to shoot straight (cause your missing) or the big man upstairs wants a personal chat
I'm not against guns and don't think that the US should ban all weapons but I have yet to hear anyone provide a reasonable reason why they need auto, semi auto assault rifles and other high rate of fire (with large clips)
You won't stop these terrible things from happening but you may be able to reduce the death toll....see where I'm coming from??
I can't see the need for a household to have an assault weapon in normal circumstances. Maybe if you are one of the serious IPSC contenders or similar for your sport, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but some states ban high capacity magazines, you can only get magazines with a capacity of up to 10 rounds.
In Rhodesia the farmers were issued assault rifles for protection against the terrorists and the same happened in SA during the Angolan war when the farmers in the border communities got assault rifles for protection. In Israel it was known for the public to carry automatic weapons but there it is for a different reason and conscription is applied, so the guy knows how to operate it.
My dad as an army reservist had an assault rifle at home but it never came out of the safe. Once we took it to the firing range and that was it until he returned it to the army. I always had to clean the damn thing along with the hunting rifles.
In Rhodesia the farmers were issued assault rifles for protection against the terrorists and the same happened in SA during the Angolan war when the farmers in the border communities got assault rifles for protection. In Israel it was known for the public to carry automatic weapons but there it is for a different reason and conscription is applied, so the guy knows how to operate it.
My dad as an army reservist had an assault rifle at home but it never came out of the safe. Once we took it to the firing range and that was it until he returned it to the army. I always had to clean the damn thing along with the hunting rifles.
'Let me check my concernometer.'
AZ Pete wrote:"Oh and this constant reference the gun lobby seem to like making about breaking away from England, yeah ok there was a revolt "England" left the US to it but come one guys it's a long time ago we know what happened, I'm just puzzled how it has any relevance to the modern world?"
I see that you don't. The point is that the second amendment came as a result of our freedom, as did the first and others.
I have to ask, Pete - Is there anything you would advocate to try and address this perceived problem?
Obviously - you don't believe that a 28th amendment is worthwhile or likely, but surely you have some suggestions?
Al
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
Then plug me back in..........
See if that works .....
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