Grip Fast wrote:The test examiner was a serving policeman (perhaps they always are).
Arrrrgggh! I can't believe I put that. Humble apologies to all female police officers, and hangs head in shame.
Advanced training
Moderators: Gromit, Paul, slparry
I did my ROSPA with the BMW training outfit in Wales and Welsh police. It was an excellent experience. Subsequently I ride with so much more observation and anticipation. And I choose how much of the ROSPA approach I want to apply .... Ie obedience to speed limit plus 10% upto 5mph, yellow jacket, etc.... Cos after all none of that applies to the MV Agusta, does it?
A friend of mine did his ROSPA renewal on the Isle of Man .... When the police officer says "make progress", on the mountain section ..... He did
A friend of mine did his ROSPA renewal on the Isle of Man .... When the police officer says "make progress", on the mountain section ..... He did
Gawaine
2003 R1100S
2007 MV Agusta F4 1000R
2013 Ducati Diavel Hers
2023 Motorrad R1250RS SE
2020 911 992 C2SC
2003 R1100S
2007 MV Agusta F4 1000R
2013 Ducati Diavel Hers
2023 Motorrad R1250RS SE
2020 911 992 C2SC
Vince wrote:Davey Bee.
What area are you from?
By chance you own a R12r afew months back did you?
I'm in North London, and no I didn't have a R12R, I'm not saying what I ride or you'll kick me off here.
I went to the meeting tonight and they took me out for an assessment. They suggested I buy an Oyster card
I'm going to sleep on it, but I did enjoy it, and the people that I met, seemed ok.
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Vince
- Posts: 826
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:56 pm
- Location: Between cars N.r Salisbury'ish, South UK
- Contact:
Ah, okay.
I bought my 12r off a David Bee.
I Observe for both IAM and RoSPA and, in my area for sure the IAM has the better set up. As for skill level it's down to how good your Observers are and how much time and miles you put in.
IAM F1rst pass = RoSPA Gold.
IAM Masters = somewhat higher (real dedication required for that one)
I try to do some extra training every two or three years although Observing has its own re-test period anyway so keeps you on your toes.
Whatever you decide the is to enjoy it and don't be afraid of asking for another Observer if your not happy with the one you're allocated.
\v/
I bought my 12r off a David Bee.
I Observe for both IAM and RoSPA and, in my area for sure the IAM has the better set up. As for skill level it's down to how good your Observers are and how much time and miles you put in.
IAM F1rst pass = RoSPA Gold.
IAM Masters = somewhat higher (real dedication required for that one)
I try to do some extra training every two or three years although Observing has its own re-test period anyway so keeps you on your toes.
Whatever you decide the is to enjoy it and don't be afraid of asking for another Observer if your not happy with the one you're allocated.
\v/
2015 S1000rs
2007 R12r
2007 R1200RTSE
2005 R1200ST (2007~2009)
1996 VFR750FT (1996~2007)
1994 RF600 (1994~1996)
GPZ750
X7
DT175
TS50
That's interesting Vince, I had been led to believe that ROSPA gold was higher than IAM.
The problem that I have in honesty, such as this weekend I was out on a long'ish trip. Keeping to the speed limits in towns and villages is fine, but on motorways I ride in the mid to high 80's (real speeds, not indicated), and on rural roads when it is safe with light or zero traffic, I will have a real head down, push for short periods! Which is not keeping within the spirit of these organisations. I try never to ride like a dick, for my and other road users safety, but…
The problem that I have in honesty, such as this weekend I was out on a long'ish trip. Keeping to the speed limits in towns and villages is fine, but on motorways I ride in the mid to high 80's (real speeds, not indicated), and on rural roads when it is safe with light or zero traffic, I will have a real head down, push for short periods! Which is not keeping within the spirit of these organisations. I try never to ride like a dick, for my and other road users safety, but…
Here's my view of the IAM/RoSPA debate from my experience as having passed the IAM test, been an IAM Observer, passed RoSPA Gold test for Car and Bike, been a RoSPA Tutor and a Chairman for a local RoSPA group (I'm not trying to big myself up, just giving you an idea of what I've done), some of which I am reiterating what people have already said on this forum.
The Comparison of the IAM and RoSPA passes
I was told my numerous people that an IAM pass was the equivalent of a RoSPA Bronze. I tried hunting down where this came from but I couldn't, it seemed to be 'hear say'. The only reference I found was when I got my first RoSPA test report. In it was an application form to apply for a BTEC in advanced driving (or whatever it was called). You could send them a cheque for a certificate and if you had passed the IAM test or got a RoSPA bronze you got a 'pass' certificate, RoSPA silver got you a 'merit' and a gold got you a distinction'.
I subsequently heard of IAM examiners claiming an IAM pass was the equivalent of a RoSPA silver.
There is now, I believe, an IAM Masters ( I think it used to be the Special Assessment), a friend of mine has done this and he said it is far more challenging than the RoSPA test.
The IAM do 'this' and RoSPA do 'that'
Before I did my RoSPA test some guys at the local IAM group told me that the RoSPA are more focussed on riding slower and more safely, there were other things too but I can't recall. This isn't necessarily true, both the IAM and RoSPA tests are based on Roadcraft and the law. What became apparent to me was that the examiners had different views on what was required to pass each test. I rode the same for my IAM and RoSPA tests.
Talking to the 3 RoSPA examiners for my area, they all had slightly different views on what was required. The younger examiner was more relaxed with each candidates idiosyncrasies, the older one was very strict and quite often knocked down great riders a grade for not doing exactly what he wanted.
RoSPA tutors are better than IAM observers
Having experienced both, there are brilliant observers and god awful tutors and vice versa. The RoSPA tutor, on paper, is a better rider as the minimum requirement to be a tutor is a silver, some groups will only accept gold riders to be tutors. However, a good rider doesn't necessarily mean a good teacher. There is a case to suggest that someone who has struggled to pass a test may be a more sympathetic and understanding teacher for someone similar, when they are undergoing instruction. What's the saying, 'those that can't do, teach'?
The quality of the observers/tutors may also be determined by the group as a whole. The IAM in York had a really good training regime (at the time I was a member), the RoSPA group I subsequently joined hadn't. I tried to change that, but was met with resistance to design a syllabus/training programme and was one of the reasons I left the group.
slparry mentions that he understood the RoSPA Gold is the same as the police Class 1 without the high speed pursuit. I had been told this too, but when I mentioned it to one of the examiners who was a police instructor, he response was similar to that as if I had shat on his lawn, shagged his wife and ridden his motorbike, all without his permission!
IAM/Rospa tutors are amateurs, albeit taking a professional attitude. Police instructors and the police are professionals, as a member of the public (unless you are very fortunate) you will never be able to get the same level of tuition, bearing in mind the legal exemptions afforded when undergoing such training. I would like to suggest that someone who has attained RoSPA Gold could preform well under such training/assessment.
Anyway, the above is my opinion and like all things related to advanced riding/driving you will get 10 different opinions if you ask 10 different people! Why not do both IAM and RoSPA, then if anyone asks you the question you have asked, you can give them an informed answer?
The Comparison of the IAM and RoSPA passes
I was told my numerous people that an IAM pass was the equivalent of a RoSPA Bronze. I tried hunting down where this came from but I couldn't, it seemed to be 'hear say'. The only reference I found was when I got my first RoSPA test report. In it was an application form to apply for a BTEC in advanced driving (or whatever it was called). You could send them a cheque for a certificate and if you had passed the IAM test or got a RoSPA bronze you got a 'pass' certificate, RoSPA silver got you a 'merit' and a gold got you a distinction'.
I subsequently heard of IAM examiners claiming an IAM pass was the equivalent of a RoSPA silver.
There is now, I believe, an IAM Masters ( I think it used to be the Special Assessment), a friend of mine has done this and he said it is far more challenging than the RoSPA test.
The IAM do 'this' and RoSPA do 'that'
Before I did my RoSPA test some guys at the local IAM group told me that the RoSPA are more focussed on riding slower and more safely, there were other things too but I can't recall. This isn't necessarily true, both the IAM and RoSPA tests are based on Roadcraft and the law. What became apparent to me was that the examiners had different views on what was required to pass each test. I rode the same for my IAM and RoSPA tests.
Talking to the 3 RoSPA examiners for my area, they all had slightly different views on what was required. The younger examiner was more relaxed with each candidates idiosyncrasies, the older one was very strict and quite often knocked down great riders a grade for not doing exactly what he wanted.
RoSPA tutors are better than IAM observers
Having experienced both, there are brilliant observers and god awful tutors and vice versa. The RoSPA tutor, on paper, is a better rider as the minimum requirement to be a tutor is a silver, some groups will only accept gold riders to be tutors. However, a good rider doesn't necessarily mean a good teacher. There is a case to suggest that someone who has struggled to pass a test may be a more sympathetic and understanding teacher for someone similar, when they are undergoing instruction. What's the saying, 'those that can't do, teach'?
The quality of the observers/tutors may also be determined by the group as a whole. The IAM in York had a really good training regime (at the time I was a member), the RoSPA group I subsequently joined hadn't. I tried to change that, but was met with resistance to design a syllabus/training programme and was one of the reasons I left the group.
slparry mentions that he understood the RoSPA Gold is the same as the police Class 1 without the high speed pursuit. I had been told this too, but when I mentioned it to one of the examiners who was a police instructor, he response was similar to that as if I had shat on his lawn, shagged his wife and ridden his motorbike, all without his permission!
IAM/Rospa tutors are amateurs, albeit taking a professional attitude. Police instructors and the police are professionals, as a member of the public (unless you are very fortunate) you will never be able to get the same level of tuition, bearing in mind the legal exemptions afforded when undergoing such training. I would like to suggest that someone who has attained RoSPA Gold could preform well under such training/assessment.
Anyway, the above is my opinion and like all things related to advanced riding/driving you will get 10 different opinions if you ask 10 different people! Why not do both IAM and RoSPA, then if anyone asks you the question you have asked, you can give them an informed answer?
Last edited by Hoppers on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vince
- Posts: 826
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:56 pm
- Location: Between cars N.r Salisbury'ish, South UK
- Contact:
Davey Bee wrote:That's interesting Vince, I had been led to believe that ROSPA gold was higher than IAM.
The problem that I have in honesty, such as this weekend I was out on a long'ish trip. Keeping to the speed limits in towns and villages is fine, but on motorways I ride in the mid to high 80's (real speeds, not indicated), and on rural roads when it is safe with light or zero traffic, I will have a real head down, push for short periods! Which is not keeping within the spirit of these organisations. I try never to ride like a dick, for my and other road users safety, but…
There seems to be as many opinions as there people to opine.
From my personal experiance the Masters was more difficult than the Rospa Gold to acheive. 2hr test on very demanding roads for Masters. Well worth going for it mind I learnt a lot from the actual test and from the couple of mentoring rides I had.
Regarding the rest of your comments, again speaking for myself, if I have my Rospa or IAM helmet on I preach the IAM and Rospa party line and ride accordinley.
When I'm out on my own I ride as safely as the conditions allow when I feel the need.
This may be faster or slower than others, it "all depends"...
Enjoy the ride safely.
Vince
2015 S1000rs
2007 R12r
2007 R1200RTSE
2005 R1200ST (2007~2009)
1996 VFR750FT (1996~2007)
1994 RF600 (1994~1996)
GPZ750
X7
DT175
TS50
Having jumped through various training hoops over the years the one MAJOR proviso I'd say is of course to take on board any skills and training but as Gawaine mentioned apply as much or as little as you feel warranted otherwise there's a major danger of it sucking the pleasure out of riding.
Sometimes just opening the loud handle is needed for nothing else than fun, even if the advanced training safety Nazi's would start tutting into their all bran
Sometimes just opening the loud handle is needed for nothing else than fun, even if the advanced training safety Nazi's would start tutting into their all bran
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Steve Parry
Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '15 R1200RT LE Dynamic, '90 K1
Steve Parry
Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '15 R1200RT LE Dynamic, '90 K1
slparry wrote:Having jumped through various training hoops over the years the one MAJOR proviso I'd say is of course to take on board any skills and training but as Gawaine mentioned apply as much or as little as you feel warranted otherwise there's a major danger of it sucking the pleasure out of riding.
Sometimes just opening the loud handle is needed for nothing else than fun, even if the advanced training safety Nazi's would start tutting into their all bran
It probably varies a lot, but that wasn't my experience of advanced training. The feedback from my first ride with our local group was that my riding was safe enough, but pedestrian and lacking sparkle. The emphasis has been about becoming an observant, thinking rider, while 'making progress' and 'showing sparkle' - safely (which is where the observing and thinking comes in).
I enjoy riding my bike much more than I did pre-advanced training.
That is not to disagree with your point Steve; there is certainly that risk if the training is not right it becomes restrictive and would suck the fun out of it. But it needn't be like that.
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